Scott Roeder convicted of murdering Dr. George Tiller
Roeder’s defense that Dr. Tiller needed to be killed didn’t fly in the courtroom. I hope he enjoys his time in prison.
WICHITA, Kan. — A man who said he killed prominent Kansas abortion provider Dr. George Tiller in order to save the lives of unborn children was convicted Friday of murder.
The jury deliberated for just 37 minutes before finding Scott Roeder, 51, of Kansas City, Mo., guilty of premeditated, first-degree murder in the May 31 shooting death.
He faces a mandatory sentence of life in prison with the possibility of parole after 25 years when he is sentenced March 9. Prosecutor Nola Foulston said she would pursue a so-called “Hard 50″ sentence, which would require Roeder to serve at least 50 years before he can be considered for parole.
January 29th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
So do I.
January 29th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
Lot’s of other people in jail who felt some one needed to be killed. They can sit around and talk shop.
January 29th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
He can read his BIBLE every night and see if he can find the verse that said ” GO and KILL a DOCTOR in my NAME ” ….
I know I’m a broken record but again DONT JUDGE LEST YE BE JUDGED. This man, regardless of how wrong he thinks abortion is, had NO right to do this. If he thinks he DID have a right to , then he is insane as well.
Sage Reply:
January 29th, 2010 at 9:28 pm
Lots of killing in the name of someone’s god has gone on. it’s wrong no matter who does it.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
January 30th, 2010 at 12:32 am
@Sage, I think I missed the part where his defense was based on something he read in the bible or that his god told him to do it. Maybe he said something about it in the past, but I don’t see that from the article. Let’s be careful with our inferences.
Sage Reply:
January 30th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
YOU be careful with your inferences. I merely suggested to AliSilver that lots of killing in God’s name has gone on. And you wonder why I think you are patronizing.
January 30th, 2010 at 7:58 am
Catholic, I just made an assumption based on historical cases where MOST folks who kill abortion docs or blow up their clinics do so with the ‘assumption’ again that God would like it because it saves babies ! My bad
Catholic Evidence Reply:
January 30th, 2010 at 9:38 am
@AliSilver, No problem. It is often the case that those who have done such things (I believe 6 times in 37 years)that they invoke some kind of Old Testiment “eye for an eye” justice. No question behavior based on bad theology is often damaging to the cause. However, in a week when several hundred thousand pro-lifers decended on Washington in a peaceful, non-violent display against abortion, the media wants to draw specific attention to a person who acted in a way that goes totally against what the majority of those in the pro-life movement believes. We need to be careful to see the whole picture. The problem is the media does not show the hundreds of thousands in a peaceful protest. What other cause could have so many people in Washington with so little coverage? The vast majority of Christians pray for their enemies, not kill them.
Sage Reply:
January 30th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
The whole picture is there are people who think they should use the law to enforce their own personal religious convictions. I don’t care if they do it peacefully, they are still trying to insinuate themselves into a personal decision that includes the very legal option of abortion. If they want a theocracy they should move to Iran.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
January 30th, 2010 at 1:41 pm
@Sage, I don’t think that is the whole picture at all. Christian religious convictions include Jesus is the Son of God and died to save humankind from its’ sins. There isn’t any push to make anyone believe such a thing (a true theocracy as in Iran). The fact is Tiller made a lot of money aborting viable children right up to the date of delivery. If you have not seen this, google an image of partial birth abortion or late term abortion. It is plain to see that such a thing is wrong based on the natural moral order. The same natural order that says that shooting Tiller was wrong. The same natural order that says slavery is wrong. All societies have such laws because they are true not because they are preached in Christianity. Because slavery was declared legal by law did not make it a true good for society. The same can be said for abortion without any reference to religion.
Sage Reply:
January 30th, 2010 at 1:52 pm
Do a little research and find out why Tiller did late term abortions. There’s more to it than you are letting on.
when Christians try to legislate their moral beliefs they are acting like they live in a theocracy instead of a democracy. I don’t care what you believe, but you don’t have the right to try and force that belief on someone else by using the law.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
January 30th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
@Sage, You won’t accept my research anyway, so you can just give me your research if you think there is a good reason to do late term abortions. The problem I have is that abortion supporters keep bringing up religion because they know it plays well for their side. No one likes to have religion thrown down their throat. So, tie abortion rights to religious enslavement instead of dealing with abortion at face value. When does life begin and what is it inside the mother? The answers are not based on any religion or scripture.
Sage Reply:
January 30th, 2010 at 2:58 pm
You really don’t know anything about late term abortions, do you?
As for the rest of your comment I have no idea what you are trying to say.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
February 1st, 2010 at 11:19 pm
@Sage, What I was trying to say is that when abortions rights supports feel they are being threatened by a topic, they often will frame their response to a question or issue in such a way that makes religion out to be the foundation of their opponent’s case. This is appropriate in some cases such as when the argument quotes scripture or a commandment. However, this is a diversion when the topic is not based on religion. If I were to say I believe that life begins at conception and the baby inside the mother deserves a chance to be born, I am not making a religious statement but rather a scientific statement and a philisophical statement. But very often the challenge back to my statement will include a religious swipe (i.e. “the religious right”, “right winged zealot”, “radical religious” etc)even though religion was not brought up. I believe this is done because then the statement can be looked as a religious one that is arbitrary or worse one that is being forced on you. This instantly changes the tone of the conversation. This seemed to happen right away with the early posts about Tiller’s killer.
Religion doesn’t have play a role in the discussion of “when does life begin?” and “what is inside the mother?”
January 30th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
Catholic, You only post when abortion is in the topic ! It must be a topic you care pretty passionately about !
Catholic Evidence Reply:
February 1st, 2010 at 11:37 pm
@AliSilver, It seems by previous posts it doesn’t sit too well with you either. It’s a tough topic that we often become very hardened to. But basically it comes to whether or not it’s a person in the womb. Look at the response to the tragedy in Haiti. How much money and time and prayer and concern and effort has the world poured forth in just a few short weeks? Why? Because those are people. Did you see the bodies being scooped up and loaded into dump trucks? I know you wept. Those people were fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, children, neighbors with dignity and potential. Because you could see them, those people, it moved you to pray and to donate and support. All those pro-lifers in Washington, the people praying in front of the clinics, the ones working at the shelters as well as myself see the child in the womb the same way–it is a person just waiting to be born. What if the world saw them as people too?
Wizcon Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 7:17 am
@Catholic Evidence, What happens after they are born when they are unwanted? Stories out of Haiti tell about abandonment, child trafficking into slavery and who knows what else. If you are pro life, what is the “life” offered?
Child mothers face a slew of physical and socioeconomical damage.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:00 pm
@Wizcon, Yes, extreme circumstances often lead to the worst in people as seen in Haiti as well as mothers without options for basic needs. However, for every bad act in Haiti there are 10 good acts. What is needed is to stir the people to act. The media’s portrayal of the needs of the people have led to a response that is 10 good acts for every 1 bad act. Many of the pregnant women who seek abortion are in great need as well. If we responded to their needs with the same intensity as we have in Haiti, there would be less abortion. But we as a country don’t see her with child, but rather a problem that can be “taken care of”, thus our response to their needs leaves much to be desired. As far as what is the “life” offered, I would would ask you to consider the worst day of your life. Even on your worst day you must of still wanted to live because you are here. There are very few people even when cold, hungry, abused etc. who wish they were never born.
AliSilver Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 7:45 am
@Catholic Evidence, I totally believe it IS a person in the womb. I’m absolutely pro life. But I’m not so pro life as to think each individual is not responsible for their own choices. GOD gives us the choice to take a life or not. IT IS OUR CHOICE. Why not protest outside of banks and try to stop folks from robbing banks? Or crackhouses to prevent them from damaging their body with poisonous drugs? See my point? Because when it comes to those kind of things we think ‘well if u wanna rob a bank, it’s your choice and you’ll go to jail for it”. It’s very clear, biblically , that we are responsible for our own actions. While it is a heart wrenching topic, we are only responsible for our OWN salvation and each of us have to travel that alone. If God is the way we’ve been taught to believe, ( all knowing, all the time) then he knows the heart of the mother who makes the choice to abort and he will JUDGE her on her circumstances. It isn’t mine or yours to judge
This is why I can’t find a church who thinks like me
Catholic Evidence Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:17 pm
@AliSilver, I would ask you to think about this. If you believe it is a person in the womb, how can you say anyone can treat it any different than a person out of the womb? No one can do violence to a child that is out of the womb. Why then can an abortion doctor deliver a child breach until the base of the head appears then stick scissors in its skull and suck it’s brains out and then deliver a dead baby without penalty. If the doctor accidentally delivers the child all the way, then it legally must be cared for. You believe the mother and doctor should have a choice, but what about the baby. Your scenario about the bank robber is a choice made by a person who must live with his or her choice. If you were in the bank and got shot by the robber, would you wish to protect his free choice to shoot you while you were at the bank? Then why do you think the mother and doctor have a free choice to kill an innocent child in the womb? I respectfully disagree that we travel alone. We live in a society with others, and yes we are free to travel our journey but not at the expense of those we share our society with. A society can only be as good as it treats the weakest of it’s members. P.S. I would never want to belong to a religion that thinks like me–I’m a broken mess.
AliSilver Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 6:59 am
@Catholic Evidence, The point is GOD gives us ALL the right to sin or not sin. Regardless of the scenario, we each have to live with our OWN choices. It doesn’t matter if I’d like to be shot by a bank robber or not. The bank robber has the choice to ROB and SHOOT or NOT ! In the eyes of GOD , I cannot change the bank robber’s destiny. Only he can do that and only GOD can judge him.
AliSilver Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 9:10 am
@Catholic Evidence, ”You believe the mother and doctor should have a choice, but what about the baby” As much as I love babies I have to take issue with this point, because a baby does not have a choice in anything. They cannot choose if they are born or not or if they are born into a happy family or not or if they are born with a disability or not. A baby is 100% dependant on the choices of OTHERS, whether it’s fair or not is not at issue. It is fact.
No the baby has no choice in the matter anymore than the victims the bank robbers SHOT had a choice in whether or not to be shot by him. HE alone is the ACTOR and is responsible for what he does. The mother ALONE is the ACTOR and has the choice to provide for, care for, adopt out or abort her baby.
” I respectfully disagree that we travel alone.” I said our salvation is a road we travel alone and no one in your family or peer group can WILL you into salvation if you are unwilling.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 1:54 pm
@AliSilver, Yes, you are correct in saying that babies is 100% dependent on the choices of other. Isn’t that why the law should give them protection because they are vulnerable. Don’t we use laws to protect the vulnerable? When you’re buying food, you are vulnerable. Laws are made to protect you from getting something that is poisonous or mislabled. When you drive, you are vulnerable. Laws are made to make sure other drivers are not impaired in their ability to drive. The law that makes it illegal to rob banks and shoot people makes you less vulnerable to getting shot at the bank. Our laws help shape our behavior. If you really believe that is a child in the womb and it is vulnerable to the actions of others, then wouldn’t it be logical to support laws to help protect that child?
AliSilver Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 2:15 pm
@Catholic Evidence, But I’m not speaking of a LEGAL issue. I’m speaking of a moral issue of sin. GOD says once you have thought the sin in your mind, you have committed it in his eyes. So if you forcibly remove someone from having an abortion ( via protest or whatnot) , you have not stopped the sin.
Honestly, I don’t find abortion to be a legal issue at all. I think it has no place in politics and shoudl h ave no baring on who we vote for. Not one DEM OR GOP member gives a ratsA$$ who gets an abortion and who doesn’t. I can promise you that.
Sage Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 4:16 pm
The Bible also says if you hate your brother you are guilty of murder.
1 John 3:15 (New International Version)
15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
Personally, I think the main opposition to abortion is it takes away control of women from men. It is disrespectful of women. If a woman is mature enough to raise a child, she is mature enough to make a decision about not having a child. But many religious men think they should have dominion over women and their decisions.
AliSilver Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:00 pm
@Sage, Respectfully disagree with the main opp. being what you stated. That thought has never entered my mind as to why I oppose abortion. I also oppose being strung out on drugs, but have had many addicted friends over my life and have never turned my back on them. We are to HELP those in need. That does not mean I give them money for drugs or p ay their electric bill because they didn’t work while chasing drugs. But I have helped in countless other ways. There is a difference in condoning and accepting, I think. Ohhhhhh, hope I used the right 2 words there, lol.
Sage Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 12:31 am
I guess we have different perspectives. That’s ok. I still think that a lot of the opposition to abortion by men is the idea of losing control of women.
AliSilver Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 8:08 am
@Sage, I’m not going to say that doesn’t account for some % of it and possibly may have been some of the initial driving force behind the opposition. It’s a hard thing to gauge because no man would EVER say that’s WHY he’s opposed. But I would bet today a big % of abortions are because the man wants no control or anything else to do with the girl and so she aborts because she doesn’t see a future with him. So maybe there is some truth to what you think. Maybe a lot. Also I’d bet there’s a lot of men who are opposed to abortion in THEORY, but when faced with becoming a daddy to a girl he just met at age 18 or less, they become OK with the idea just about overnight !
January 31st, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Bottom line it’s about choices. Both pre preganancy, during pregnancy and after. Way to much emphasis is on abortion and more is needed on the other poles. One choice leads to another. Abotions are legal but not desireable. Teen pregnancies are way up. These stats will no doubt be followed by the abortion stats, which, by the way were way down in recent years due to the sex education availabilty amongst teens.
Ponticfying after the fact of an unintended pregnancy is a no win situations. Saudi Arabia recently delivered 100 lashes to a young girl who was raped and had the audactiy to get pregnant from that rape. While our society is no where near the Saud’s, we do the same socioeconomically to our women and children in these situations. You need to look beyond ther doors of the abortion clinic to the foster children, the poor, the unwanted and see where the real sin is.
January 31st, 2010 at 1:08 pm
There are several ways to ‘cure’ the problem of abortion in my view. Not all are PC and most seem outlandish probably.
I remember several years ago watching a MAURY show ( i dont watch it anymore since its the same show every day with different people) that was about DNA tests for babies. One young man of 16 or 17, NOT EVEN LEGAL ADULT, had more than 10 girls. I am not exaggerating for shock value. He really had something like 13 or 15 girls on there. He was gloating and smirking as if he had some kind of special charm to have so many girls with his potential babies. No doubt he had no means to take care of even 1, much less if all of them were his. I don’t know the outcome of the dna tests because I turned it off. All I could think was “If I was that boy’s mama or PO or brother or in ANY way knew how to get to him, he would have a vasectomy the next time he woke up”".
Does it cure the problem of abortion…. maybe not. But boys who are running through young ladies like a field of grass are too stupid to keep ‘intact’. My husband called me a nazi for saying this. Am I ? So here’s a society where the girl has the whole of the issue thrown back at her. Will she keep it, will she abort, can she support it, bla bla bla. I’m sick of it. What about the super potent sperm donor who’s laughing on Maury and feels like ‘A MAN” because his spread his seed over half a state? What’s his responsibility? If he’s underage, ZERO, his parents are responsible for any child support a judge might impose.
Did anyone see the movie called “KIDS”?
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:04 am
CATHOLIC??? I just thought of something. Forgive my ignorance on this and I hope it won’t sound facetious. This is a serious question. Do Catholics pray for souls that are lost in purgatory? Is purgatory a place where a soul goes that’s not in heaven or hell? I’m sure it’s more complex than that, and I’m not trying to get a SERMON , if you will. Just a yes or no would suffice. If purgatory is what I think it is ,, the above,, then what sort of person goes there ? tks
Catholic Evidence Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:47 pm
@AliSilver, Thanks for the question. Here’s the shortest “non-sermon” I can give and still give the topic it’s due. When one dies, he/she will be judged to be in/out of the grace or favor of God. For those out of God’s grace by their own free willed choice, they would spend eternity outside of God’s presence (Hell). If you are in God’s favor (by the work of Christ of course), you will eventually spend eternity with God (Heaven). But Catholics believe scripture in that nothing unclean can enter Heaven and stand before God. We on earth, even though we are forgiven, still often hold deep attraction to things of this world. Maybe we remain materialistic or egotistic or lack service to our neighbor. These imperfections need to be done away with. Also, even if forgiven there are consequences for our free choices against God. Purgatory is the opportunity to perfect your soul and rid yourself of these things. The Church doesn’t really define exactly how it happens although many talk of the pains or purifying fire. I don’t know, but think if you could watch a movie of your life, but for every time you chose against God you could see all the injustice it caused to what he wanted for you and those that were hurt–maybe you’d feel the hunger that went unmet because of your greed or the betrayal of your lie. As the movie played out every scene would build on the previous one causing you to further regret going against God’s perfect plan for you and increasing your understanding of all the good you could do if you had it to do over. Maybe that is how it works to burn away those things that still cloud your soul until finally nothing impure remains and you can stand in the presence of God. It would indeed be painful yet good for you because it would perfect you to what you were created to be. Yes, we pray for the souls in purgatory, and them hearing all our prayers hopefully aids them through the experience. Sorry, you know me, I can’t keep it short. I do appreciate honest questions.
AliSilver Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 9:14 am
@Catholic Evidence, Then would your time be better spent praying for the souls of the babies and mothers then trying to prevent the sin in the first place? Should Christians sit outside of brothels or bars and beg the sinners inside to come out and change their ways?
Catholic Evidence Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 2:24 pm
@AliSilver, I believe that nobody wants to a life that is less than it could be. I certainly have been helped to see things in my life that could be and have been improved. Even though change for the better may have been difficult, I always have been glad I did and often wished I’d done so sooner. If purgatory is a place where you are improved or purified so to speak, I think part of the pain will be the regret that we didn’t trust God enough to change for the better sooner.
I think if we are to help people, we should begin by living a good and honorable life that is respected by others and seek opportunities to meet their needs especially when they ask for it. This doesn’t mean lecturing them outside the bar, but it does mean being ready to serve them when needed. If they change for the better, purgatory will be less unpleasant.
AliSilver Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:01 pm
@Catholic Evidence, I did not ever think of purgatory as an unpleasant place. Tks for the lesson, HONESTLY. That’s news to me. I just thought of it as a void.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 9:56 pm
@AliSilver, I think you would agree that in every situation here on earth whether good or bad, we have a chance to grow for the better. Although we grow in the good, it seems that tough times (painful times) are the ones that cause us to cry out to God and offer the greatest opportunity to grow. Even though we don’t know the method, purgatory is a place that we can purge/rid ourselves of all that has held us back on earth. Get rid of the bad and fill up on the good. I do appreciate your honest question.
February 3rd, 2010 at 9:26 am
I guess this is where I differ from a lot of Christians, even many that I know and are in my ultra conservative family. I tend to take the bible literally, while some others tend to apply their own feelings and versions to what they think God or Jesus was ‘actually’ saying. That’s just silly. I think if Jesus were to walk up and meet a girl who had just aborted her baby , he would put his arms around her and comfort her and tell her she is going to be fine. Disciples and others turned their back on HIM. He did not turn his back on US , and US includes sinners. In fact, the collective of US if comprised 100% of sinners. No sin weighs more than any other. So until there are people protesting GOSSIP and DISRESPECT of elders and LYING to the tax man or your spouse or being JEALOUS of your friend’s good fortune,,I just don’t see the point of vilifying mothers who abort.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 2:46 pm
@AliSilver, I again would disagree with the notion that no sin weighs more than another. I think we’d all rather have the bully take our son’s lunch money rather than the bully shoot our son. In the Catholic faith, sin is weighed. Some sin moves us away from God, but does not separate us from Him (stealing lunch money). Some sin (when done with full knowledge of the effect, and freely choosing it under no duress with full consent of your will) is so grave that it does separate you from God’s grace (shooting another person). So Catholics believe that gossip and disrespect can and do move you away from God, they don’t have the gravity that killing another has. Please understand me. I believe most women do not know the full effect of their decision to abort and also are under such severe stress that they are not freely choosing the abortion. It just seems like the only thing left. I would believe a high percentage of women fall in this category, so they would not be fully accountable for the sin (and this is why they should not be vilified). Thus, they may not have truly separted themselves from God. Only, God knows their heart, and only he can judge. However, the act of abortion is always very grave because a life ends and thats why it will always a greater concern for Catholics than gossip or disrespect.
Sage Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 4:10 pm
Basically you have little to no respect for women and their intelligence. What a load of crap.
AliSilver Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:06 pm
@Sage, Is Catholic a dude? I’m not getting what you’re getting from this statement….
Sage Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 12:32 am
I think it is a guy, yes.
AliSilver Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:06 pm
@Catholic Evidence, That is where the catholic and protestant faith differ I guess….the gravity of a sin. Sure WE would rather a bully take lunch money than shoot our child. But what GOD is saying is he’d rathr us do NO SIN, and any sin is a sin,,, so watch the little white lies.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 9:58 pm
@AliSilver, I will be on watch.
AliSilver Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 10:08 pm
@Catholic Evidence, I probably told one today
AliSilver Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 8:04 am
@Catholic Evidence, Are you a dude ? It would be interesting to know because I generally think of you as a female and assumed that was part of why you were so ADAMENT on all things abortion related.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 7:36 pm
@AliSilver, Drumroll please……….I am a dude. Sage wins. I married my highschool sweetheart and we have 5 kids from age 3-16. I was raised Protestant and converted to Catholicism when I got married. I care about abortion because, if it is a child, then it is the worst part of our country. I’m a very regular midwestern guy living a simple life, and I’m not interested in controlling anyone just shedding light to some of the issues. I check this site out because you guys generally see things different than I do and find it interesting. I don’t post anywhere else. I’m a busy dude.
February 4th, 2010 at 8:17 pm
AHA! See Cath, You and I are on the same side of the abortion issue . Only difference I’m of the ‘catch more flies with honey’ theory and you seem to prefer vinegar.
But I do like DEBATE,, not name calling or reciting the party lines, but real debate.
Try honey………I hear it tastes better.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
@AliSilver, I think my posts seem like vinegar because I’m mostly disagreeing. Sometimes I get carried away challenging certain posts, but I’m not usually rude. My response may seem party line, but I would think part line is kind of repeating something blindly without thought. I don’t think my posts are without thought.
AliSilver Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 8:48 pm
@Catholic Evidence, Ah, no those were not directed at YOU. Yes the vinegar part. But I meant I like THIS BLOG because it’s adult and the folks are smart and it’s not just about bashing those with different views. I’ve been learning a lot here. It’s refreshing to be able to come and talk with smart concerned folks about REAL situations in our world . IT’s crazy times!!!! We all need somewhere to connect and sift through the BS the media tells us and use our own ideas and thoughts about issues. It’s constructive ! IMHO
February 4th, 2010 at 8:21 pm
BTW, I was on another blog today ( Reading, only) CT, and the comment was made that a man, who will never have to decide whether or not HIS BODY carries or aborts a child, really h as little or a no place in the abortion argument. I’m not necessarily saying that is true, but it’s easier to make judgments when you know you can never be in that position. Like I could say all day that I’d give half my money to charity if I was a billionaire………..never have to follow through though. Cuz I’m not going to be a billionaire at the rate I’m going. Food for thought’s all.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
@AliSilver, There are many scenarios in life that are transitional (ie age, fertility etc) or unable to be experienced by another (race, sex, birth order etc.) that should still be able to be commented on by another even if he/she doesn’t belong to that category. Yes, I agree that when you experience something first hand it adds to your credibility, but issues of politics, science, morals, philosophy, religion can and should be open for all to debate.
timesr Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 10:37 pm
@Catholic Evidence, “Yes, I agree that when you experience something first hand it adds to your credibility, but issues of politics, science, morals, philosophy, religion can and should be open for all to debate.”
Debate is one thing, deciding personal issues for another is something else.
The older I get, the more I realize I don’t know and the less inclined I am to judge others.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 11:16 pm
@timesr, Here comes the vinegar, sorry. You first need to debate whether it is only personal to the mother. If the child is a person then the issue is important to the child as well. Something personal involves nobody else. If what is in the mother is a nothing and/or a nobody, then yes it is a personal issue only to the mother. If what is in the mother is a child, then the issue is greater than just personal to the mother.
As I have gotten older I am certainly less inclined to judge the heart of another. Only God knows the heart. But actions have to be judged. Society would break down if we had no distinctions of what is good/bad and right/wrong.
timesr Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
@Catholic Evidence, “Something personal involves nobody else.”
My relationship with my husband is personal and most definitely does involve some one else.
“But actions have to be judged. Society would break down if we had no distinctions of what is good/bad and right/wrong.”
The idea that abortion is a community issue while feeding, clothing, and caring for the health of the poor is strictly a personal choice seems a contradiction to me.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’”
Sage Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 11:19 pm
Hey there, timesr. I’ve missed seeing you around.
timesr Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 12:19 pm
@Sage,
Thanks.
I’ve been busy with stuff I’d rather not deal with.
Sage Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
I’m sorry…that doesn’t sound like any fun.
Sage Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 11:18 pm
EXACTLY For men it is an intellectual, spiritual or moral argument. For women it’s about reality. No man has to ever worry about making barely minimum wage and not knowing if he will get laid off because he is pregnant. No man has to ever make a decision about whether or not to have an abortion when the doctor says you will die if you don’t. No man has to wonder how much damage will be done to his already bad back if he has a pregnancy. And no man has experienced quite the shame that an unwed pregnant woman experiences. I personally know quite a few women who have experienced all of the shame of pregnancy when they were unwed, and women who had no idea how they would pay for the delivery and care of an infant because the dad took off.
Do I highly recommend abortion? No, I don’t, but nor do I demonize it as murder. I personally don’t believe life is made up of a blob of cells. I don’t think the government has any place in a personal decision a woman makes with her doctor.
If someone wants to argue abortion from a spiritual point of view, I would point out that the Old Testament does not put the same value on the life of an unborn fetus as it does a woman’s life. I would also suggest that there is nothing to say that “life” begins at conception. In the Old Testament, Adam wasn’t a living being until he took a breath. In the New Testament it is said that life is in the blood. So, when does a fetus have it’s own blood supply? There are many ways to look at what constitutes life.
timesr Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 1:03 pm
@Sage, “…women who had no idea how they would pay for the delivery and care of an infant because the dad took off.”
IMHO, our culture puts an impossible burden on women. We’re supposed to be out working while being at home with our kids.
Sage Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Yes, it does. I wonder how many men just walk away from a pregnant partner on a yearly basis? How many Christian organizations really help women with unplanned pregnancies IF they don’t want to give up the child for adoption? How many of those organizations worry about how the mother will feed and clothe that child once it is delivered? How many Christians have we heard complain about welfare and programs for the kids of poor mothers? And how many of those same people who lament the destruction of a 4 week fetus have no problem with sending a 19 year old into an illegal war to die?
February 5th, 2010 at 8:03 am
OUCH! I just gotta say because I have been looking at microscopic cells lately , NOT EVEN KIDDING, that even one cell is alive. Whether its the cell of a plant, a virus or a human. One cell is life ! I’m not a scientist or a doctor, but individual cells move around and have life.
Sage Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 12:57 pm
So, should we save sperm because to flush it down the toilet is destroying life?
timesr Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
@AliSilver, “One cell is life ! I’m not a scientist or a doctor, but individual cells move around and have life.”
Individual cells do have life, however it is not independent life. Obviously we are not morally concerned with ending the life of the cells in a limb that must be amputated, yet each of those cells contains all the genetic information necessary to replicate the whole person.