Gardasil Researcher Drops A Bombshell
Remember the story of Simone Davis whose attempt to become a U.S. citizen has been blocked because she hasn’t gotten the Gardasil vaccine? And now it turns out the vaccine really isn’t needed.
Not only will Gardasil not significantly reduce the number of cervical cancer cases in this country, it is being given to young girls when there are no efficacy trials for those younger than 15. What the hell? Seriously, why are girls being used as guinea pigs…..as a matter of fact, Dr. Harper said giving this vaccine to girls under 15 is “is a great big public health experiment.” Well, thanks a lot. There have been 44 reported deaths due to the vaccine, and such side effects as Guilliane Barre, lupus, seizures, paralysis, blood clots, and brain inflammation. Dr. Harper has said, “The rate of serious adverse events is greater than the incidence rate of cervical cancer.”
In Texas, Gov. Rick Perry had tried to order a Gardasil mandate in 2007, but was over- ruled by the state legislature.
Well, thank God the TX legislature had more sense than it’s governor. Virginia and Washington, D.C. have instituted loose Gardasil requirements for sixth grade girls. I think there is a real danger in legislators and state governors who think they have the knowledge and expertise required to make such decisions. Once again we find politicians inserting themselves into the medical decisions for females. IF the vaccine were proved to be effective and appropriate then it would be up to one’s doctor to discuss the vaccine with girls and their parents, make recommendations after fully informing of the possible side effects.
Dr. Diane Harper, lead researcher in the development of two human papilloma virus vaccines, Gardasil and Cervarix, said the controversial drugs will do little to reduce cervical cancer rates and, even though they’re being recommended for girls as young as nine, there have been no efficacy trials in children under the age of 15.
Dr. Harper, director of the Gynecologic Cancer Prevention Research Group at the University of Missouri, made these remarks during an address at the 4th International Public Conference on Vaccination which took place in Reston, Virginia on Oct. 2-4. Although her talk was intended to promote the vaccine, participants said they came away convinced the vaccine should not be received.
“I came away from the talk with the perception that the risk of adverse side effects is so much greater than the risk of cervical cancer, I couldn’t help but question why we need the vaccine at all,” said Joan Robinson, Assistant Editor at the Population Research Institute.
Dr. Harper began her remarks by explaining that 70 percent of all HPV infections resolve themselves without treatment within a year. Within two years, the number climbs to 90 percent. Of the remaining 10 percent of HPV infections, only half will develop into cervical cancer, which leaves little need for the vaccine.
[snip]
She went on to surprise the audience by stating that the incidence of cervical cancer in the U.S. is already so low that “even if we get the vaccine and continue PAP screening, we will not lower the rate of cervical cancer in the US.”
There will be no decrease in cervical cancer until at least 70 percent of the population is vaccinated, and even then, the decrease will be minimal.





October 28th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
So…do all these side effects count a pre existing conditions?
Sage Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Probably getting the vaccine would keep one from getting benefits to treat the side effects.
October 28th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
OMG,,, thanks for posting this. I was reading this TODAY and sent it off to some friends already. You can tell Gardasil’s a scam by how HARD they try to ram it down our throats! Anything people want and need, they KNOW they want and need and you don’t have to FORCE them to buy it, LOL ! Just ask McDonalds’ and Starbucks !
Sage Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
This really ticks me off.
October 28th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Why? Because of all the girls who have taken it, trusting it would do them good? Or because of the vax co. keeping their findings secret? You know what got me suspicious at first? The state f Texas and our dear leader Perry went on on tv , practically with tears in his eyes begging us to give i t to our babies ,the younger the better. At that moment, I thought , what is the DEAL with this? Yanno? From then, I read any article about side effects and them pushing it and the 2 do not add up. Much the way I feel about the ‘swine flu’ vax ! But that’s a whole ‘nother story
Sage Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Why? Because once again the American people are being lied to, manipulated and used as guinea pigs.
skyagunsta Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
@Sage, and … are the American people also being lied to, manipulated and used as guinea pigs so far as the H1N1 vaccine goes? Some believe people are.
AliSilver Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
@skyagunsta, Well let me put it like this… I’d way rather have the GARDASIL shot than the swine flu! For one, its had more time out there and I’m past child bearing age! I worry about the girls’ reproductive futures who take that shot. But if I personally had to take one today, I’d choose gardasil.
Sage Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Frankly, I don’t know. I’ve never in my life had a flu shot. I remember the swine flu shot of the 70′s and I didn’t have one then.
AliSilver Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
@Sage, Also now they are marketing it for BOYS too. Do you believe ?
Sage Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Well, I guess it’s only fair. If girls are going to be used as guinea pigs boys should be too.
timesr Reply:
October 28th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
@AliSilver, “…because of the vax co. keeping their findings secret?”
Where’s the freedom in that?
October 29th, 2009 at 7:24 am
In a nation which supposedly leads by example, I have to ask, have either of the Obama girls been given the Gardasil vaccine; fir that matter has the Obama family been innoculated against the swine flu with the H1N1 vaccine? >:-(
Sage Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Yes, the Obama girls have had the H1N1 vaccine.
skyagunsta Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
@Sage, thank you Sage. That is good to know.
October 29th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
No they haven’t Sage. Not as of 2 days ago. Obama said they were not high risk, so he would wait until there more shots available !
That is h1n1 shot. Don’t know about gardasil.
Sage Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 6:41 pm
I heard last night that the girls had the H1N1 shot but Barack and Michelle would wait until more were available. That was via CNN I think. Or if not CNN ABC news.
October 29th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Well then they just got them in the last 48 hours because I was reading earlier this week that they did not. So some must have become available
leslie Reply:
October 29th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
@AliSilver, it is possible that they got the shot in the last 48 hours. One of the headlines in the Chicago papers either yesterday or the day before was that both Malia and Sasha had their H1N1 shots. I didn’t read the article, because I didn’t care.
I am skeptical of the H1N1 vax, as is my doc. And she is the least skeptical person I know. I was shocked when she admitted her doubts.
AliSilver Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 8:23 am
@leslie, I’m not claiming they did not get shots,,, earlier this week is the last I heard. So if they did, then great. Because I was super skeptical of a prez who tells US to and then did not get his girls’ theirs. So if he now has, then that’s one less thing to harp on him about
leslie Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
@AliSilver, I understand. And I was only hoping to add what I had read. I hope I didn’t sound critical or anything. I thought you were simply stating what you knew at the time.
AliSilver Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 5:49 pm
@leslie, Exactly right Leslie. I was hoping the same thing ! HEHE
October 30th, 2009 at 2:07 am
I posted on this board before that my daughter had a horrific reaction to that vaccine, and someone else blew me off. In our case, after the first shot, the doctors insisted that symptoms that showed up in the days following were completely unrelated. My daughter had to go through a frightening period of tests and x-rays b/c the doctors said she likely had hodgkins disease or some other lung disease. She was about to undergo a needle biopsy when the neck doctor suggested we wait to see if the lumps went down. We waited. They did. Still, not one doctor would admit the shot caused the lung symptoms and lumps.
Then when she got the second shot, things got worse. The lumps returned, and she started fainting – several times over a series of days. That’s when I started reading online about other girls who had become paralyzed and/or died from that shot, and about how its effectiveness is limited in time and duration.
I warn everyone now, before you get your kids that shot, read everything you can get your hands on – not just the worthless crap they hand out in the doctor’s office.
As to H1N1, my daugther got that flu the first week at college, so we’re NOT getting her the shot, even though her doctor said she can’t be SURE she had H1N1 flu. Frankly, I trust my common sense more than the doctors. I think they check their common sense at the door to the medical school.
October 30th, 2009 at 8:22 am
My children’s doc is very SHOT HAPPY ,, swine flu, gardasil,, any of them. We have yet to have the gardasil shot, but I’ve got a feeling it is coming because my daughter is almost 12. THat may be a deal breaker and I may have to change docs, which will suck because I really like him and they’ve been seeing him all their life. But some docs are just SUPER shot happy ! It’s frustrating.
October 30th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Hey Sage,
We found something we agree on. Only don’t leave the blame only on the medical establishment and drug companies. What role have the militant (reproductive rights) feminist groups played in this saga. They have pushed this stuff as much as anyone. Also, don’t think this scam stops at Gardasil. Check out the history of trials on the pill. How about side effects of other pro-women interventions (i.e. the pill and abortion)? The combination of emotional political agenda and big time money = scam. In these cases at the expense of women.
timesr Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
@Catholic Evidence, “How about side effects of other pro-women interventions (i.e. the pill and abortion)? The combination of emotional political agenda and big time money = scam. In these cases at the expense of women.”
I’m old enough to know that abortions will not end if they are made illegal. Women with money will have them where they are legal, and women without money will get them where they can, and some will die.
I doubt that anyone gives polio much thought these days. I remember when I was a child the fear that came along with summer before the polio vaccine. That vaccine was controversial too, and for good reason.
Catholic evidence Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
@timesr, I’m not sure I understand the point you’re making. I didn’t say that abortions would stop if they’re made illegal, just that it has side effects that are rarely discussed in the mainstream media similar to the under-reporting of the side effects of Gardasil. Also, if you want to know of another scam, look up the origin of the numbers of women dying from back alley abortions prior to when they were made legal. We’ve long heard thousands if not tens of thousands. See if you can find me some support of that.
Sage Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Don’t start in with the side effects of abortions. Your stuff about abortion side effects is religious propaganda with no hard evidence or research.
As for the pill women are told of the side effects of the pill when it is prescribed.
Wizcon Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
@Sage, The pill gave me somewhat of a normal life. I had endometriosis really bad.
Sage Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
You and me both. I went off the pill for awhile because of weight gain and the next thing I knew the endometriosis was so bad I ended up having a hysterectomy.
AliSilver Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 8:52 am
@Sage, I gotta disagree with you here Sage. Abortions do have side effects. Not to say every abortion will cause a problem for a woman, very similar to not everyone who takes a gardasil shot will have side effects. But I know people personally and have heard of others who have a hard time concieving after an abortion. And ANY SURGERY has side effects. Just plain and simple.
Sage Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 1:54 pm
I was addressing the “side effects” Catholic evidence talked about before.
Sage Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
No, the pill and abortion aren’t a scam. Women know the risks of both and are informed of those risks by their doctors. Both the decision to take the pill or get an abortion are medical decisions that are not the business of anyone but the woman and her doctor. Certainly the church, any church, nor the government should be involved in those decisions.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
@Sage, It is interesting that you say the government shouldn’t be involved. The government will be involved in everything when it takes over health care, and it will be influenced by agendas and money no less so than the insurance companies are now. However, when the government’s in charge it will use political issues like abortion and other women’s health issues for its gain not ordinary women. Also, if I’m not correct the FDA is very involved in a woman’s decision with the pill right now. It deemed Gardasil OK just as it did YAZ which has also been injuring women.
Why do you think these things get passed through so easy? My guess is strong support from women’s groups, politics and money more so than the health of young women. And if these forces are dominating this tragedy, are you sure they haven’t aligned with other issues in the past? Sage, you’re a good investigator. Are you sure its all religious propaganda?
timesr Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
@Catholic Evidence,
As a religious person you know that all institutions devised by human beings (and that includes the Catholic Church, BTW) are flawed and there will be no perfect government until Christ returns to rule the earth.
The Bible has a lot more to say about the treatment of the poor than it does about abortion or birth control; for instance, it is forbidden to sell to the poor and make a profit just as it is to charge interest on loans to the poor.
Until I see Christians faithfully standing in front of B of A, and Wells Fargo, etc just as they do in front of Planned Parenthood, in protest of higher interest rates inflicted on the poor, I don’t care what you have to say about abortion.
Sage Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
Well said, timesr.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
@timesr, Actually, the response seems like diversion from the point. The funny thing when I post is that I rarely make any point based on anything religious for the specific point that nobody wants to hear that on a liberal site. I also never talk about the baby because you don’t want to hear about that either. I leave a few questions or topics to google for yourself because you don’t want my statistics either. I’m guessing you’re not finding the answers you want, so you change to a new topic. So, how about a response to the points I’ve made without referring to religion because outside of my post name I’ve made no mention of it.
Sage Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
We have the answers we looked for and we just don’t care to debate this issue with you. That’s pretty much what it boils down to. You made your position abundantly clear last time we had this discussion….I disagree with your position and that hasn’t changed nor is it likely to. There’s nothing left to be said.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 11:42 pm
@Sage, I thought maybe you had the site for others beside you. You don’t have to debate it, maybe others want to. The last debate dealt with whether or not abortion hurts women. We’ll let that go. This one is different, and is mainly about whether other drugs that are readily pushed on women also have worse effects than what is normally understood (especially when the money and politics are ripe for it). Obviously, the pill is by far the biggest one to look into. The problem is women so badly want this to work without side effects that many of them look the other way. But can we actually convince ourselves that a medicine that takes a perfectly healthy woman (the last time I checked fertility is not a disease) and makes her body abnormal will not at some point harm her?
Sage Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 1:44 am
Women are fully aware of the side effects of pills. I never had them prescribed to me without being told all of the possible side effects and given a brochure about side effects. PLUS when you buy the pill you get information from the pharmacy about the side effects of the pill.
I don’t know any woman who just looks the other way when it comes to side effects. Where did you get that information? Did you pull it out your butt?
I don’t know what you can actually convince yourself of, but I was well aware of the side effects of the pill when I took it. If I hadn’t listened to alarmists like you I might never have had to have a hysterectomy.
We are all well aware of the catholic position on the pill and most of us who comment here reject that position. I guess if you can’t convince women that birth control is evil on spiritual grounds the next best thing is to try and convince them how harmful it is. You aren’t going to peddle that on my blog.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 11:11 am
@Sage, I have a hard time believing the teens at Planned Parenthood are as diligent in reading the lable or have detailed conversations about side effects. I also believe that many women fear pregnancy more than enough to put up with all types of side effects.
In regards to you all being aware of the Catholic position on the pill, I’d be more than happy to listen to any of your descriptions. I’d be real suprised if you are aware of it.
Lastly, something cannot be true on one level and not another. If something is true spiritually, it will not contradict nature. If something is against nature, it may be spiritually problematic or not. But never will something spiritually good for you go against your physical well being.
Sage Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Teens are also informed of the side effect of the pill. And one must see a doctor yearly in most cases to get the prescription renewed from year to year.
I don’t really care what you have a hard time believing or what you think I know and don’t know. It’s not up to other people to dictate to any female what she does or doesn’t do with her uterus.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 4:07 pm
@Sage, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you do know, but I’ll rehash for the others that may not.
The Catholic faith has a sacramental nature that respects that the physical/material world actually reflects and leads to the spiritual world and spiritual truths. It upholds natural law that is revealed in scientific laws of nature as well as the moral law (that there are moral truths that support and reflect human dignity and conscience).
Now I’ll divert for just a moment to reflect that there is almost universal support of the natural law in science. For example we understand balanced nutrition and the benefit of natural/organic foods for optimal health of the body. We understand the rhythms and balance of an ecosystem such as a forrest or wetlands. We understand that poor nutrition doesn’t usually kill a person just lessens one’s ability to thrive. Similarly, chasing off the spotted owl doesn’t kill the forrest just disrupts the balance. These things are hard to deny.
Back to the Church and the pill. Because the Church respects and declares there is a moral law, a right and a wrong in regards to human behavior, it dares to say there is right in wrong in sexuality. It dares to say, “Life is good”, “It is good for a man to leave his mother and father and cling to a wife”, “It is good to be fruitful and multiply” (i.e. be open to life). It also declares that the sexual act has a special sacramentality given its power to emotionally unify the couple, and it is the means that God brings a new soul into the world. The Church declares that no human act that has that much power to change the participants and history through the creation of a new human being would have it’s meaning be relative to societal trends or judicial ruling. The Church declares that the enormity of the consequences of this act can only be properly born out in an indissolvable marriage. It also declares that if the act is to remain in the nature for which it serves humanity, it is to remain unitive (done in love) and procreative (open to life).
Given this, the Church informs its members that your greatest happiness will be found in remaining chaste in courtship as it helps you to better know who you are marrying and develops self control. In marriage, the Church informs you that you only have relations with your spouse and if spacing is needed between children, use the naturally infertile times of a woman’s cycle. This does not disrupt the nature of our sexuality and leads to natural bonding outside of the act of sex and continues to build self control.
Now if this ideal is followed perfectly by any couple they will never have an “unwanted” pregnancy or a sexually transmitted disease. Their chance of divorce is certainly less than 10% probably less than 5%. They will have zero side effects of medicine. They will likely live longer and be happier than those who don’t. Now if you don’t live this, will it kill you? No. But just like poor nutrition, it thwarts your chance to thrive.
What does the pill offer. It adds chemicals with side effects to a perfectly healthy body to make it work abnormally. It automatically sets up the attitude that life is unwanted and exposes one the risk of the need to abort if it fails. It exposes one to STD’s. It exposes one to diminish the unitive aspect of sex (benefits without commitment). It leads to distrust of the participants because it does not build self contol, rather it degrades it. These are just a few of the negative fruits of the pill.
Now this is a small review of the Church’s view of the pill and the contrast of its prescription for sexuality. Please remember that nobody is forced to be Catholic or follow its teachings. But as far I my experience (I’ve seen both sides), I am thankful to be living in accordance to my nature and not against it.
timesr Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
@Catholic Evidence, “So, how about a response to the points I’ve made without referring to religion because outside of my post name I’ve made no mention of it.”
I see, of your own free will you place a label on yourself, in full public view and I’m supposed to ignore it. Well, that’s logical – not.
On the other hand you’ve pigeonholed me as a liberal that doesn’t want to hear about the baby.
Now that that’s out of the way, what exactly is it you want me to google?
Catholic Evidence Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 12:31 am
@timesr, The name dates back to when Sage wanted to know what evidence the Pope had to say that a policy of condom distribution in Africa frustrates the problem of AIDS more than helps it. The name was actually logical to begin with. Maybe it isn’t now.
You may want to check my post. I called the site liberal, not you. You may want to go to the “about” section of the blog to see that Sage does profess being liberal. I have no idea what your slant is.
As far as googling, most times when people bring up subjects like trials, side effects, the pill, abortion, YAZ etc. others sometimes search them to see what the deal is. Look around especially at sites you wouldn’t normally look at and see what is being said.
Sage Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 1:46 am
What? Catholic sites that slam the pill because of religious bias? Do you honestly think we have never checked out the side effects of the pill? If so, could you possibly be any more condescending?
timesr Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 10:20 am
@Sage,
Pregnancy also comes with risks. The same medical science that has harmed women has also made pregnancy and delivery safer for both mother and baby.
Sage Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Exactly.
timesr Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 11:50 am
@Catholic Evidence,
Yes, you did call the site liberal and then went on to use “you” in reference to specific positions.
Your screen name betrays a bias, it is illogical to use it if you insist your bias be ignored. To be consistent it would be a good idea to then avoid stereotyping liberals.
For the record, I am liberal, but just like all Catholics don’t agree, neither do all liberals.
I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion. What that means is that I don’t presume to have all the answers for every woman. Sincere religious people have struggled with the issue of abortion for centuries and come to different conclusions. Even the Catholic Church has changed its position over time.
I do think if you believe that abortion is wrong then for you it would be a sin and you shouldn’t have an abortion. I would never try to talk you into it.
Jewish tradition teaches that if the unborn child threatens the life of the mother then abortion is not only permissible, but required. Would you pass a law prohibiting that woman from having an abortion? I wouldn’t.
You don’t want government involved in your health care decisions, neither do I, nor do I want your church involved in mine. BTW, if abortion is made illegal then isn’t government dictating what health care is available to a woman?
AliSilver Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 8:58 am
@timesr, ”Until I see Christians faithfully standing in front of B of A, and Wells Fargo, etc just as they do in front of Planned Parenthood, in protest of higher interest rates inflicted on the poor, I don’t care what you have to say about abortion”
Bravo TIMESR!!!!!!!!!!!
You Christians (myself included) need to act more CHRISTlike sometimes… It’s good for u !
Sage Reply:
October 30th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
Yes
AliSilver Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 8:56 am
@Catholic Evidence, Interesting . You all remember when the arm implant for birth control came out? i can’t remember what it’s called. But just like VIOXX,,, people came running for it and then later when they found it had some problems, they took it off the market. But it was the hottest ticket for a few years. I just think for gardasil,,, vioxx, implants all of them…. to the FDA,,, “”DO YOUR JOB”"” . Don’t let them sell it until it is SAFE enough to use. That goes for ANY med or med. procedure.
The problem here is the FDA is a joke and is bought by big pharma and other corps. to pass it along, safe or not. They’ll all be rich before we the people know what hit us… A$$HoLeS!
timesr Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 10:32 am
@AliSilver, “The problem here is the FDA is a joke and is bought by big pharma and other corps. to pass it along, safe or not. They’ll all be rich before we the people know what hit us… A$$HoLeS!”
I agree, they need to do their job honestly; no doubt the prospect of big bucks is enough to influence judgment.
October 31st, 2009 at 10:32 am
Hey Sage! I cannot believe it has been more than a year ago we battled the wicked liar!! How have you been doing?
October 31st, 2009 at 10:34 am
Hey Sage! I cannot believe it has been more than a year ago we battled the wicked liar!! How have you been doing? Oops! I guess I put in the wrong email address! Anyway, I am doing fine, and getting ready for Thanksgiving again!
Sage Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 2:05 pm
I’m doing ok. I’m glad you are doing fine and it’s good to see you around. I check in on the wicked liar every now and then but he’s pretty much not an issue any more.
AliSilver Reply:
October 31st, 2009 at 5:50 pm
@Grace, GRACE O M G ! :O How are u ?
Grace Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 2:25 pm
I am glad to hear everyone is well.
lol @ Sage, you are certainly good in keeping tap on that liar! It’s good to check in you folks once a while. Any plan for Thanksgiving?
Hey, Ali! I am doing well. Do not have online service at home anymore. I only check my email from local library. Other than busy working, I have been busy paying bills also, lol! Well, I am still clipping coupons and looking for a couple of good recipe from time to time. How about yourself? How are you doing? Wizcon still hanging around? Tell her I say Hi!
Sage Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 3:36 pm
I’m not sure what we are doing for Thanksgiving yet. How about you?
AliSilver Reply:
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:12 am
@Sage, Oh yea,,, Sage, maybe we could do a recipe thread for holidays? SImilar to last year, only I don’t know if it had it’s own thread. I made the SIMPLEST deluxe cookie bars the other day. EASY ! FOUR STEPS< No mixing, etc !
Sage Reply:
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:52 pm
We can do that.
Grace Reply:
November 3rd, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Hubby requested “Virginia Ham” instead of turkey for Thanksgiving. I went through my forever growing pile of magazines, and saw a very delicious cheese cake. I might attempt that for dessert. None of hubby’s family celebrate Thanksgiving, and mine don’t either. So it will be back to me and him again, lol! I have to find left over ham recipes for after Thanksgiving.
Sage Reply:
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Yum…Virginia ham is good stuff.
November 1st, 2009 at 12:17 am
Catholic Evidence “What does the pill offer. It adds chemicals with side effects to a perfectly healthy body to make it work abnormally. It automatically sets up the attitude that life is unwanted and exposes one the risk of the need to abort if it fails. It exposes one to STD’s. It exposes one to diminish the unitive aspect of sex (benefits without commitment). It leads to distrust of the participants because it does not build self contol, rather it degrades it. These are just a few of the negative fruits of the pill.”
The pill does not expose one to STDs.
The pill does not create the attitude that life is unwanted otherwise, women wouldn’t go off the pill for the purpose of getting pregnant.
What does demean human life is tying medical care to market worth, the ability to pay, and profit. When someone says health care is a privilege, not a right, isn’t he saying in effect, that life has value IF one has the bucks to support it.
Sometimes I wonder if Europe’s lower violent crime rate is due to universal health care, access to education, and social support systems that provide tangible evidence human life has value beyond what is produced economically.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 12:58 am
@timesr, I totaly agree with you that human life has value beyond what is produced economically. I also agree that as long as medical care and market worth share the same bed, there will be trouble. I don’t know what is the best answer is. The free market leads to innovation and a more productive work force but leaves the poor on the side of the road. Government health care covers the poor but allows for political manipulation of the services.
If a woman who has never had relations with anyone but her partner who has never had relations with anyone else, then no there is no exposure to STD’s. However, there is a large percentage of encounters that occur because of the vary fact that the possibility of pregnancy is eliminated. There are usually two good reasons not to sleep with someone for a tryst (pregnancy and STD). If one is eliminated (pregnancy) then is the risk of #2 (the STD) enough to say no? Fory many, that answer is no. For those who go ahead and do it, they are exposed to STD’s. I believe this happens a lot.
I do believe the majority of women are on the pill for the reason of not getting pregnant (i.e. life at that time is unwanted). Failed contraception is a large contributor to abortion for the very reason that life wasn’t wanted. I wasn’t suggesting that everyone on the pill didn’t want life for ever, just the time they’re on the pill.
timesr Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 3:44 am
@Catholic Evidence, “The free market leads to innovation and a more productive work force but leaves the poor on the side of the road.”
I had a friend in high school whose father was a janitor. On his janitor pay he was able to buy a modest house, had a modest vacation home, support his two sons and allow his wife to be a stay at home mom. His job also provided health insurance.
Innovation in America didn’t suffer because because he was paid well enough to take care of his family. In fact my friend grew up to be an innovator.
“There are usually two good reasons not to sleep with someone for a tryst (pregnancy and STD). If one is eliminated (pregnancy) then is the risk of #2 (the STD) enough to say no?”
Fear doesn’t seem to be getting the job done.
Why does Europe have lower abortion, teen pregnancy, and STD rates than the United States?
http://www.now.org/issues/health/teenpregnancy.html
Catholic Evidence Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 12:54 pm
@timesr, I totally agree with what has been a concern of the Church’s for a long time–a living wage (which is exactly what your friend had). Pope John II wrote extensively on the value of work and the need for a living wage. While he supported some parts of capitalism were good, it’s ability to misuse the worker needed to be checked by a love of neighbor (worker) that would reward good work. The US system has and is currently failing many workers.
I know we’ve strayed some but the topic, but I thank you for the discussion. In regards to the pregnancy, STD and abortion rates, I would not dispute them. It looks like a victory for the European ideals in this area. But, I’ll go back to the nature of our sexuality as well as the Catholic Churches upholding the moral law. For a devoted Catholic, he/she knows that there is a call to love neighbor as yourself. Thus, your life is not yours alone, it belongs to society as well (the body of Christ). When life and family are promoted and protected society thrives not only now, but ensures the future generations. One of the problems with the pill and contraception in general is that when it is used effectively, it works (NO CHILDREN). This seems good for the individual, but what about the community. All the government programs you seem drawn to and Europe has successfully implemented need a tax base. Now pick your source and review birth rates in Europe. You need to have a rate of 2.1 to replace the population and Europes is about 1.7. The only group who are growing there numbers in Europe are Muslims (whose faith calls to be open to life and rejects abortion). I know this sounds alarmist, but Europe as we know it will not exist in the next 2-3 generations. It’s social programs are unsustainable and the Anglo race will soon be a minority.
This is what I meant previously about our need to look at the nature of sexuality and how we need to cooperate with it. The Catholic Church not only offers a way to protect the individual but also the community. Unfortuantely, most don’t.
timesr Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 2:57 pm
@Catholic Evidence,
Again, I want to know why conservative Christians are so vocal when it comes to abortion and birth control and much less so when it comes to the treatment of the poor? The Bible is clear on the subject and according to you, so is the Pope. What is stopping you from having the same care, concern, and passion? Why do you pressure politicians and harangue women – I’m curious to know what motivates you (and other conservative Christians) to impose your beliefs and will on all Americans in the area of sex while giving greed and the financial/commercial interests a pass?
“This seems good for the individual, but what about the community. All the government programs you seem drawn to and Europe has successfully implemented need a tax base.”
Seems to me that Europeans have a strong sense of community and are willing to put their money where their mouths are when it comes to taking care of their own.
“I know this sounds alarmist, but Europe as we know it will not exist in the next 2-3 generations. It’s social programs are unsustainable and the Anglo race will soon be a minority.”
Immigration or no immigration, one thing I can say with certainty is that in 2 or 3 generations Europe, Africa, S. America, or wherever will not exist as it does now. That is a meaningless statement.
As for the race thing – I guess we better get crackin’ on treating the people of other races as we would wish to be treated as a minority to set a good example.
The same range of arguments about abortion exist in Islam that exist outside of that religion. Further, Islam does permit birth control even where abortion is not permitted.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 6:15 pm
@timesr, I hear this argument alot–why bother so much with abortion and not with the poor. My family is a one income family with five kids who still gives 10 percent to church and charity (including Food for the Poor). With two college degrees between us and 17 years of marriage, we’ve never owned a new car. We’ve owned 1 house that is over 50 years old. All of the kids have shared or do share a bedroom. I think if every family were as fanancially restrained and generous, there would be a lot less poor. I don’t hail my family to be better than anyone, just a counter to your claim that pro-lifers don’t care about greed and waste. My best friend’s dad sat in on the meeting more than 25 years ago that started the biggest free clinic in the city with over 2,000 medical visits per week. That started with a few people in the basement of a Catholic Church. The two biggest food banks and soup kitchens in town have Catholic roots. St. Vincent DePaul charities is a major provider of goods and services to the poor throughout the world. Do you want to guess who takes care of the greatest % of AIDS victims in Africa? How about the network of Catholic hospitals and schools that serve the poor? Look at the Sisters of Charity (Mother Theresa’s order)and their service to the poorest of the poor throughout the world. This is a tiny fraction of the those serving others just as their faith calls them to do. The effort to impose limits on abortion is not against you, it for the child. If you believed it was a child you’d do the same. In regards to sex, the last time I checked, you can do just about anything with anybody at any time.
To say that no culture will be the same is skirting the issue. There is no way for these countries to sustain the government programs they have without people.
Sage Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Prove that the countries can’t sustain the government programs. You throw out a lot of stuff like it’s fact and never back it up with anything.
AliSilver Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 7:12 pm
@Sage, Hey Girl, I wanted to thank you for looking into that stuff for me. Sorry it was a waste of time. I ‘m not great at searching some things and I thought it might be something super fun and freaky ! You’re a gem !
Sage Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 7:32 pm
You’re welcome. Did you find out for sure what it was about?
AliSilver Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 11:12 pm
@Sage, no, but there is a gaming board that is tracking it that i’m checking in with every day for new comments. I’lllet u know when the cat’s outta the bag !
Sage Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:04 am
Cool…thanks.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:32 am
@Sage, Why do you think they say Social Security is unsustainable,
too many people benefitting with too few people paying. It’s a numbers game, and the numbers that are needed are tax payers. The US reproduction per woman is about 2.1. What is going to happen to Germany (1.3). It’s simple math.
timesr Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 11:31 am
@Catholic Evidence, “It’s a numbers game, and the numbers that are needed are tax payers.”
In that case, we should be addressing poverty.
“WASHINGTON, Jan. 24 — Children who grow up poor cost the economy $500 billion a year because they are less productive, earn less money, commit more crimes and have more health-related expenses, according to a study released on Wednesday.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/25/us/25poverty.html?_r=1&ex=1170392400&en=f8363ff917ea26c2&ei=5070&emc=eta1
timesr Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 8:11 pm
@Catholic Evidence, “To say that no culture will be the same is skirting the issue. There is no way for these countries to sustain the government programs they have without people.”
Immigrants become citizens, have children who are citizens, and they pay taxes, so I don’t know where this idea of a lack of people comes from.
As for the rest, I have no doubt that churches and their members do a lot of good and compassionate work, however there isn’t the same zeal to impose Biblical directives regarding the treatment of the poor on government and secular life as there is for birth control and abortion. Again, why is that?
You say your activism is about the child, what about children who are already born?
“Abundant evidence now suggests that living in relative poverty and exposure to relative income inequality, especially in childhood, may have a detrimental influence on health and well-being during childhood and across the life course. This Commentary discusses the importance of relative poverty in childhood and the implications of income inequality for population health.”
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/extract/301/4/425
Poverty isn’t just about us geezers, its about the child too.
Sage Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 8:54 pm
Nobody ever talks about the emotional distress that many adopted children deal with. Every child should be born into a family that wants them and that can provide for them.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 11:47 pm
@timesr, So what you’re telling me is that European countries now have open door immigration policies to help provide a tax base for the programs they won’t be able to fund because of there negative population growth. I must have missed that.
I think the thing that may be missed is that there is no protest/media attention when Christians donate to the poor with there time and money, but there is when they protest abortion. I think that the zeal is conflict of view points. Obviously, many liberals and conservatives have zeal for helping the poor, and there efforts often pull the same direction so there is no conflict. However, many pro-women liberals zeal is directed at maintaining access to abortion while many pro-women conservatives zeal is directed at helping a woman choose life for her unborn child. Now the zeal is in conflict and reported on. But just because there are no reports about pro-lifers helping the poor doesn’t mean they don’t and doesn’t mean they aren’t zealous about it.
I’d be willing to bet there is 100x’s more hours in my community given to the poor per week than to protesting abortion. There are a multitude of people daily at the soup kitchen, food pantry and free clinic and there are a handful of people praying at the abortion clinic on Thursday’s (the day they are performed). A 100x’s is probably an understatement.
The causes of poverty are great, and I don’t know if there is one concentrated point to rally protest. I think a lot of the mortgage crisis occurred from lending money to people who couldn’t afford it. Banks are not perfect by any means, but I don’t think lower interest rates will cure poverty. On the other hand, one person who chooses against abortion = 1 life x all the others that follow from that life. That is probably why more people will protest an abortion clinic over a bank.
Sage Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:07 am
Funny how you never show up here to champion the poor but you only show up when you get an opening to preach your ideas about abortion and birth control. Why is that if the poor are so important?
You really have no idea how transparent you are, do you?
Catholic Evidence Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:41 am
@Sage, Why would I read your blog other than to get countering opinions on things. I don’t comment on things I agree with. There are no new ideas. I think I try to be transparent. I thought that’s the best way to communicate. I think my posts look different than most and expose another side to the story. They get ideas exchanging. Why show up if that won’t happen?
Sage Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 7:44 pm
The Catholic Church upholds moral law? LOL If the catholic church spent as much time and effort protecting born children as they do fetuses, it would indeed be a better world and more moral church.
Do little blue fairies dance while pink fairies sing in your universe?
timesr Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 8:36 pm
@Sage,
When it comes to moral law, the Catholic Church has a log to with before it starts working on our splinters.
Sage Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Really. I don’t appreciate the proselytizing by those who support a church who has treated children the way it has. This story made my blood boil:
http://mountainsageblog.com/2009/05/27/catholic-church-in-the-hot-seat-again-over-child-abuse/
The church uses it’s position and money to shield child predators and pedophiles and then wants to talk about how sacred a fetus is? Please, how hypocritical can any one organization be?
timesr Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 10:59 pm
@Sage,
A woman can be excommunicated for having an abortion while known pedophile priests were just transfered from one assignment to another in the US.
Then there’s this:
“(AP) Cardinal Bernard Law, who resigned in disgrace as archbishop of Boston over his role in the clergy sex abuse crisis, has been given a role of honor in the mourning for Pope John Paul II.
The Vatican announced Thursday he will lead one of the daily Masses celebrated in the pope’s memory during the nine-day period that follows the funeral, called Novemdiales. The service will be held Monday at Rome’s St. Mary Major Basilica, where Law was appointed archpriest after leaving Boston.
Some Roman Catholics in his former archdiocese immediately protested.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/07/world/main686346.shtml
It really doesn’t seem that the Catholic Church is more honorable then the manufacturers of Gardasil.
Sage Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:06 am
Truly. One standard for the poor dupes who jump through the hoops to stay in the good graces of a bunch of pedophiles who live with a different standard.
Nowhere does the Bible really address abortion, although there are scriptures in the Old Testament that suggest a woman’s life is of more import than an unborn fetuses. Nowhere does the Bible say that birth control is wrong.
The funny thing is the people who procreate the most are usually the ones who should procreate the least.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:10 am
@timesr, Any current priest with an accusation is removed until the case can be studied. There is no transferring now. It wasn’t the case previously, but is now.
The humans within the Church acting against it’s teachings and against the moral law are worse than the manufacturers of Gardasil because those in the Church know better. Even Jesus only had 11/12 follow him, but his truth was revealed not by his betrayer rather by his followers. The same goes for the Church. It’s truth is revealed by it’s followers, not it’s betrayers.
Sage Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:16 am
Unless the outrage from the followers is louder than the actions of the betrayers the followers become complicit in the crimes.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:54 am
@Sage, You are right. However, outrage is nice. Action is better. If you follow the numbers, there has been major progress in helping to end this tragedy which is real and horrifying. There is much less abuse going on and better steps to identify it. Nobody should be satisfied with any abuse (but any entity with a billion members will suffer from it’s worst members). I’m glad it is improving, not satisfied.
Sage Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:24 am
Where did so many of the catholic churches tenets come from? Surely not the Bible. Celibacy for preachers of the gospel is not a Biblical requirement. Praying to Mary is not a Biblical idea. The idea confessing to a priest is not Biblical. And the idea of papal infallibility is not Biblical. I always find it interesting how so many religions that confess to be Christian pull their tenets out of thin air.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 11:55 pm
@timesr, the church declares the moral law and because it does so, it has the opportunity to have a log in its eye. Otherwise, there would be no standard of morality and anybody could do anything to anybody else without consequence to them or society.
Sage Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:09 am
The church declares the moral law? Where’s that in the Bible? And which church?
Catholic Evidence Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:24 am
@Sage, Just like physical laws of gravity, conservation of energy etc., there are moral certainties. You don’t steal from others, you don’t kill the innocent. You don’t lie to others. These are moral truths. If individuals and societies do not follow these, then they cannot thrive.
Such things make up the moral law. It is written into our human nature and it cannot be removed from us whether we want to or not. The Church didn’t create the moral law, just like a scientist doesn’t create gravity. The Church just declares it exists, just as the scientist declares gravity exists. The scientist can declare gravity doesn’t exist, but it’s going to hurt when he hits the ground. Humans can declare that the moral law doesn’t exist, but individuals and societies suffer when it’s ignored.
timesr Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:14 am
@Catholic Evidence,
Odd, Buddhists and Hindus seem to do OK without the Pope to guide them.
AliSilver Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 11:16 pm
@Sage, The Catholic CHURCH ( using the term loosely) does more to protect KNOWN pedophile priests than it does to protect UNBORN OR BORN children !!!!!!!!!!!!!
So , what is sacred to the Catholic Church is not it’s parishioners or their children at all.. Grrrr .
Sorry to all God fearing law abiding Catholics! Because I know there are plenty of Catholics who are disgusted with how the church’s SCANDAL has been handled as well.
And…….. Gardasil SUX !
Sage Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:04 am
Why would any moral, law abiding person continue to support the Catholic church after all the abuses that have been exposed? It boggles the mind.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 11:52 pm
@Sage, No Sage the angels sing and the saints dance. Don’t worry Sage the moral law will aid the atheist who follows it and convict the priest who does not. The moral law is for all humans not just Catholics.
Sage Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:02 am
And who decided the Catholic Church was the keeper of the moral law? I don’t remember taking a vote.
Tell the kids who are abused not to worry because somewhere down the road the priest will be convicted. Usually not in this life.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:11 pm
This conversation has come a long way from gardasil is bad for you …..
Sage Reply:
November 1st, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Yep, sure has.
Catholic Evidence Reply:
November 2nd, 2009 at 1:08 am
@Sage, Well the weekends up. I’ll have to check out for a while. I’m sure we’ll have fun again. This time we made past 60 posts before we got to the priest scandal. I know when it gets there, we’re all about ready to quit. Maybe I should change my name. Nah, I’m too transparent. You’ll know who it is.